Great Persecution, and do the Saints = the Church?
Pre-Tribulationists believe that there will be a group of people saved after the rapture, and during Daniel’s 70th week, and it’s those people who go through the persecution of the Antichrist. So let’s take a look at what troubles the church is promised, and what the saints of Revelation go through.
Great Persecution
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Daniel 12:1-2 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jeremiah 6:22-23 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth. They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 13:5-7 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
When we hear that we’ll suffer persecution, we need to understand that this isn’t heavenly persecution/wrath, but worldly attacks. Below, I have some example Bible passages with the relevant translation beside the terms: wrath, tribulation, persecution, etc. I’ve also included the Strong’s Concordance numbers and the definition of the terms as they’d been written to show the difference between God’s wrath on earth, and the World’s wrath on believers.
First of all, tribulation is a byproduct of living for Jesus. We aren’t promised an easy life, just a perfect forever.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath (orgē), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Orgē (Strong’s Concordance #G3709): wrath, anger, vengeance, indignation.
Secondly, we must understand that the word “Tribulation” isn’t used to describe God’s wrath. The words used are either Thilipsis, Diōkō, or Diōgmos. These terms are the description of worldly pains, not heavenly punishment.
Thilipsis (Strong’s Concordance #G2347): pressure, pressing grief, physical pressure on a man.
Diōkō (Strong’s Concordance #G1377): to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away, to pursue (in a hostile manner), to harass, trouble, molest.
Diōgmos (Strong’s Concordance # G1375): persecution.
Jesus himself promised us worldly troubles on account of his name:
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation (thilipsis): but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation (thilipsis); continuing instant in prayer.
Once we understand that worldly tribulations are expected, we can look into the prophecies of the days before our rescue. We’ll see that our persecution precedes God’s wrath. Understanding that we’re protected from God’s wrath (which starts the same day the church is raptured—more on that later) we can determine where the church is rescued (though we won’t know when).
Matthew 24:9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted (thilipsis) and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation (thilipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 4:16-17 (also in Matthew 13:3-23) And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction (thilipsis) or persecution (diōgmos) ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
This could be an explanation for the falling away of the church, as well, but we’ll look at that in the next chapter.
Luke 21:12-13 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute (diōkō) you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation (thilipsis) enter into the kingdom of God.
When Jesus opens the Fifth Seal, we see martyrs under the throne of God. They ask when God’s judgment will begin, showing that the wrath has yet to appear:
Revelation 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge (krinō) and avenge (ekdikeō) our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Krinō (Strong’s Concordance #G2919): judge, determine, condemn, go to law, call in question.
Ekdikeō (Strong’s Concordance #G1556): avenge, revenge, to vindicate one’s right, do one justice, to protect, defend, to avenge, to punish a person for a thing.
Saints = Church?
Some will say this because they believe that God loves His church too much to let them get beat up by the Antichrist. But that fundamentally changes the way God operates and what Jesus promised for those who believe in Him. We are baptized into one salvation, though Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
To say that there’s salvation for some people that excludes them from being the church (thus, the bride of Christ) is to exclude those people from the “one baptism” promised to those who believe in the name of Jesus and confess Him as Lord.
Just because the Seven Seals start after the word “church” stops being used, that doesn’t mean the Church is no longer there. The Seals show worldly trials and those martyred for the name of Jesus. Pre-Tribulationists say that the word Church isn’t mentioned at all past the letters to the seven churches. And that’s true. In fact, the word “church” doesn’t come up again until Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
So, by the logic of the word “church” not appearing after the letters to the seven churches, the church doesn’t have any bearing in the final events of Revelation. The word “church” isn’t used for the 1,000-year reign, so we can’t be there, the word “church” isn’t seen at the final Judgment Seat of Christ, so we can’t be there, the word “church” isn’t named in the new heaven and new earth so we can’t be there … Do you see the problem with that logic? Just because the word church isn’t used, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a role to play. So what language is used for these things?
The 1,000-year reign
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The final Judgment Seat of Christ
Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books … And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The new heaven and new earth
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
We, God’s church, are called:
Witnesses for Jesus,
Ones whose names are in the Book of Life, and
The people of God.
The word “saint” is used 67 times in the New Testament, and it refers to ordinary Christians who have put their trust in Jesus Christ. Just as a fun experiment, lets list other terms used to represent Jesus’ church:
Saints, upright, congregation.
Psalm 89:7
Psalm 111:1
Psalm 149:1
Ephesians 2:19-20
1 Corinthians 1:2
Philippians 1:1
Body of Christ.
Ephesians 1:22-23
Branch of God's planting, vineyard.
Isaiah 60:2
Jeremiah 12:10
Matthew 21:41
Bride of Christ.
Revelation 19:7
Revelation 21:9
Church of God, Jesus, Firstborn.
Acts 20:28
1 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 12:23
Family
Joel 3:2
Ephesians 2:19
Ephesians 3:15
Hebrews 3:6
1 Peter 5:3
Flock of God, fold of Christ
Ezekiel 34:15
John 10:16
1 Peter 5:2
Golden candlestick.
Revelation 1:20
God’s Inheritance.
Psalm 28:9
Isaiah 19:25
Deuteronomy 32:9
Pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15
And now that I’ve had my little rant about the illogical nature of that argument, I’m gonna get into the nitty gritty of the saints and martyrs.
The holy saints (hagios)
Hagios (Strong’s Concordance #G40) most holy thing, a saint, sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated), (most) holy.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints (hagios), and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Revelation 13:10 If anyone is taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword he must be slain. Here is a call for the endurance of the saints (hagios).
Coincidentally, the use of the word “saints” in these verses is the same word as “holy,” used for the Holy Spirit, holy covenant, holy place, etc. For example:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy (hagios) Ghost, and with fire.
This leads me to believe that those baptized by the Holy Spirit are “hagios” saints.
Fun fact: The word “Saints” appears 67 times in the New Testament. Only 13 of them are in the book of Revelation. Just because the word “church” isn’t used after chapter 3, that doesn’t mean the believers are any different after the start of the tribulation. Not to mention that the church is told how to behave within the last 7 years. (I’ll write up a dedicated post about this, but I think the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 are archetypes for the state of the church as it goes through the tribulation.)
The Martyrs and another look at the “Thilipsis” tribulation.
As we discussed previously, the word for Tribulation (thlipsis) is the same word Jesus used when warning us that we would suffer affliction for His sake.
John 16:33 “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation (thlipsis): but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
Matthew 24:9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.”
We need to take into account that Hagios refers to anyone indwelled by the Holy Spirit and those who are considered holy, and Thilipsis refers to the worldly trials promised to us for being followers of Jesus. With that, we can look again at how Revelation talks about those who go through a portion of Daniel’s 70th week.
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
This verse shows the martyrs that have gone through the four horsemen of the first four seals of the scroll. The words used to describe them: “brothers” and “fellow servants” mean “brothers in Christ” and “fellow servants to the same king.” In other words: Saved believers in Jesus Christ.
When one of the elders asked John who those people were, John says that the elder already knows.
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (thlipsis), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So if the tribulation described before the 7th Seal is the same type of tribulation as Jesus promised we’d endure for His sake, then that tribulation isn’t God’s wrath, but the wrath of the world/Satan. And we all know that we’re to wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb to make them white.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
So if the hagios saints are the church, then references to these saints are also references to the church. These references go straight to the 7th Trumpet:
Revelation 14:12-13 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This statement directly precedes the description of Jesus reaping the earth, followed by his angels reaping the earth’s grapes to be thrown into the winepress of God’s wrath. We see a quick description of glory given to God in heaven before coming back down to earth to see the bowls of wrath poured out. (I’ll write up a post about this as well, don’t worry <3)
Phew! This was a long one! Thanks for reading, it means a lot to me. If you want to talk about this post, or anything else end times related, hop on my discord to get in touch.
Once I’ve written the posts about my idea that the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 are archetypes for the state of the church as it goes through the tribulation, and the reaping of the earth in Revelation 14, I’ll link them here.
